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Talk:Shaun
Name How do we know Shaun is a Stoppable? We don't. Same on the introductory line which says his father is Ron's Father's brother, we don't know that either. These need to be reworded to work with the ambiguity of cousins as well as what little we know. Love Robin (talk) 11:08, December 29, 2012 (UTC) :I completely agree. There was a real problem with last names early in the creation of many of the characters. :If, I don't hear any different in a month from now I will change the name of the article to remove Stoppable. :Mknopp (talk) 12:20, December 30, 2012 (UTC) Moral Issue of Attitudinator Taking up the discussion started on the forum page. Content copied from forum by Mknopp ---- It is unclear if this effect was ever reversed, which is a troubling prospect. I know that it is a fine line between seeing something and extrapolating what it means. I don't want to stiffle that here. However, to me this is beyond seeing something in the show and interjecting a bit of personal interpretation. Thoughts? Mknopp (talk) 22:42, February 14, 2013 (UTC) You don't find it so? I don't think even RW encyclopedic articles would consider it editorial to mention in such a slight way the fact that it was left unclear the final disposition of a seven year old boy '''who was '''mind-raped. I rather think I exercised considerable restraint with the wording of that statement. Certainly users of this encyclopedic source should at least have it brought to their attention even in this passive a fashion. Now, want personal interpretations? It is also troubling that Electronique's final fate was left open as well, PLUS Kim was seemingly OKAY with Shego left so indefinitely. If it were Ron or her parents, she'd have not rested a moment to move Heaven and Earth to seek a fix. I could go into depth, if just not in this article, about Kim's entirely fluid sense of ethics and morality as displayed in the series. Love Robin (talk) 02:27, February 15, 2013 (UTC) ---- Honestly, no, I do not find the final disposition of Shaun or Electronique troubling. And, I dare say, that the majority of people in the world, would agree with me. Practically since the dawn of civilization societies have been seeking out methods of "curing" the sociopaths and psychopaths within it of their illness. Personally, I find the use of a technology such as the Attitudinator to be a far better solution that execution, permanent incarceration, or many of the modern drugs we use. The fact of the matter is that the Attitudinator is only a small matter of degree removed from drugs such as Thorazine or Clozaril used to treat Schizophrenia and it doesn't have the nasty side effects. Honestly, if a device like the Attitudinator did exist in the world, then there would likely be many very happy people. People who, like Shaun, exhibit no regard for right and wrong, often violate the law, disregard the rights of others, engage in frequent violent conflict, lie, and usually have drug and alcohol problems. Quite frankly, Shaun was on a very bad road. And from his long term pattern of behavior it was pretty clear that there was no responsible adult in his life making any effective attempt to set him straight. To me, Shaun finally got the help he so desperately needed to allow him to become a functional member of society instead of the clear road to incarceration or worse that he was traveling on. The fact that he was seven when it happened simply meant that unlike Electronique he won't have to serve time in prison for his sociopathic behavior. Like cancer it was caught early enough that it wasn't a major problem. So, again, I don't find this to be "mind rape" and I don't see how some else could, unless they also finds the numerous drugs and treatments that many people around the world are using to combat sociopathic tendencies to also be mind rape. Which, I will readily admit is a possibility. I do realize that there are people who find psychotherapy and drugs to be morally repugnant, but I personally don't agree with them. Regarding, Kim moving Heaven and Earth to cure Ron or her parents. Well, that would be moving a moral and good person to that of a sociopath or evil person, and I would truly hope that anybody would move Heaven and Earth to help them. Because, unlike the reverse this change doesn't help the person, it removes them from a functional life in society. Simply put, the two are not equal, despite the use of the same device. It would be tangentially analogous to doctor using a scalpel to remove a cancerous tumor from the brain versus a maniac using a scalpel to remove a healthy prefrontal cortex. One is a good use of the device and one isn't. And just because a maniac might wield a scalpel amorally doesn't make the doctor's use of the scalpel immoral. At least that is my take on it. Mknopp (talk) 04:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Electronique was an adult and a villain, so that is more debatable as to the properness of it. However, not only was Shaun a child, the decision to, and execution of, adjusting his attitude in such a fashion was *not done by his parents*. Or even authority figures. It was decided and performed by a teenager who had been unable to stand against a troublesome child. NO ONE PERSON should have such discretion to impose their will upon others. Certainly not another child ''only twice the age of the subject. Drugs or other methods are prescribed after a study, diagnosis, and recommendation '''by professionals '''to parents and others '''in position of authority'. And of course second opinions are recommended. Hopefully if the Attitudinator were to ever be developed in the Real World, it too would be subjected to restrictions similar to dispensing drugs and or addressing brain tumors. But like anything, it is open to abuses. Such as certain drugs can be useful when medically prescribed, when used by none professions, it can be used to rape an individual. Would *you* want some 14-15 year old to take it upon themselves ''to use a device, or drug, or whatever on *your* child? Hopefully you would be more aware of your child's actions and be more proactive in parenting, but we're not discussing the actions of Shaun's parents, we're discussing the fact that RON ''decided for himself ''to use a device to MAKE HIS LIFE EASIER by using it on a boy half his own tender age. That is mind-rape. Of a child. By another. Love Robin (talk) 05:29, February 15, 2013 (UTC) You do realize that this is on a show about a group of kids who are vigilantes and lauded for it. In the Ranma community this is something that was known as subjective morality. You are perfectly okay with giving Kim and Ron a pass on their episodic violation of numerous legal and moral issues, but you want to suddenly hold this instance to a different standard of morality? Who gave either of them the authority or the right to break into Any of the villain's lairs and assault them? After all these are children dealing with life and death situations, and in the real world that is insane. In fact, the Possibles and Stoppables should have all of their children taken from them for child endangerment. However, this isn't about treality. It is a kid's show where these same kids that you are saying don't have the legal or moral authority to correct Shaun's sociopathic behavior regularly hold numerous lives in their hands. You can't have it both ways. If we make this moral statement, then we have to also make the statement that the Possibles and Stoppables are unfit parents and nobody seems to care, that is very troubling. Kim and Ron are criminals, and should be brought to justice, yet instead they are held up as heroes for the world to cheer, that is simply wrong and this wiki needs to address that issue. Is that what you really think this wiki should be? Because, I don't. Look this is simple. It isn't some great moral dilemma. Shaun was attitudinate because he was written as a sociopath, and just as when we cheer at Kim or Ron taking actions that would kill the villains in real life we were supposed to cheer at Ron finding a non-violent way to solve his cousin problem. I realize that this is a hot button topic for you; I get it. And I don't have a problem discussing it with you here, but I want you to realize that it is your personal subjective morality that makes this stick out as different, not some universal outrage at Ron's actions. If KP were real then there would more than enough universal,outrage to go around, but it isn't real. So, just, please, keep that in mind. I know that you love to treat KP as if it were real and look at everything from in universe, but the wiki isn't the place for that. Sometimes things are simply the way three are because of real life reasons, like a creator's goof or the realities of the medium or someone's idea of "karma". Mknopp (talk) 06:15, February 15, 2013 (UTC) '''Because heroes should be ''better ''than the villains'. It is one thing to take certain actions against adults, it is another against kids. Even Shego momentarily balked at stealing a wheelchair. So our heroes should be less than a person avowed as evil? Kim called mind control "ferociously unethical" yet despite being subjected to it herself and subsequently saved from it by her brothers, she had no problem using it on them to make them nap. With the Love Ray, Kim thought nothing of zapping Monique without warning simple because she was blocking the way, and threatened to do it again if she didn't stop fussing. And that's her best female friend. Well I didn't go into an in-depth discussion, I simply tagged on that with Shaun it was troubling. Had Drakken done it to Shaun, what would the heroes' reaction have been? What *should* it have been? Why should it be any different when done by Ron, hopefully Kim unaware of it? Again, No One Person should exercise that against any other one person without checks and balances, especially a child against one younger. Okay, suppose Evil Ron had done it to Shaun, maybe other kids as well. Would that have been okay? Suppose Kim started equipping herself with the Reverse Polarizer and started blasting kids. Would *that* have been okay? How would that be much better than Nanny Maim using evil (formerly adult) babies? We should demand better of our heroes. Why was Coach Kim's actions against a bunch of kids allowed to be highlighted as Not Okay, but Ron messing with a kid's brain okay? And Shaun was not a sociopath. He was simply a bully. Probably because his parents subscribe to either the "don't stifle your child" or "absentee parenting" techniques? Shaun was little different from Artie Smartie, bears some resemblance to each other, yet why is it okay to zap Shaun and not Artie? Look, in my fics, I deconstruct them thoroughly, my flagship fic following Kim's slide into evil. But here, I don't see why "a troubling prospect" is out of place. I carefully worded it so that it was neutral. And would have prevented this entire discussion. Prevented dragging this entire matter of ethical fluidity out in the open. Still, you've heard me posit that Ron's blue aura as different from the color of the idols which graced him the power, may be tainted based upon his expression at time he does kick it in gear. This is certainly supportive of that. As for the Possibles' and Stoppables' paranting techniques, well, I do have issues with how the Stoppables treated Ron, but Kim's parents allowing her to do what she does… is still *her parents* allowing her to do what she does. I'm a HUGE supporter of Parental Rights and that the government has little place to abut their noses in where they don't belong. So I may not agree or approve of how Shaun's folks are parenting him, but is it still 1) their place, 2) their right, 3) their responsibility to *take* responsibility. How hard would it have been for Kim to help Ron get through to Shaun's folks that he's on a bad road? For THAT MATTER, considering Shaun's expression as Bad Boy Ron was looming over him with his doom contraption, the writers could have used THAT MOMENT for Shaun to realize he needed to treat Ron better, then at the end have him say something like "Sorry I always treated you badly, Cousin Ron. I'll be better from now on… so, no need to come after me with any more doom machines… right?" "Glad to hear that Shaun, and we'll see how good you are…" SAME RESULT, without ''resorting to Good Guy using non-ethical tactics. If we're going to be an encyclopedic source, then why not the less than flattering as well? Why not passively help users to see the moments "which makes you go 'hmmm…'?" Love Robin (talk) 09:02, February 15, 2013 (UTC) . Since this has moved well beyond a simple discussion of Shaun and the Attitudinator and well into the scope of what we are trying to do here I am moving this discussion and my response to Forum:Should we editorialize?. Mknopp (talk) 14:42, February 15, 2013 (UTC) I hate Ron's little cousin the most in the whole series. The Worst character in Kim Possible history... We have a winner for my most hated character in the entire Kim Possible series: Ron's evily satanic, 7-year old cousin, '''Shaun'. It honestly pains me to see poor ol' Ron ruined by his own family. Anybody should know he not only had has an extremely cruel and stupid family, at least to me, although, to me, his baby sister and dad are cool, but his some of the worst people to ever be related to. The good parts about Shaun was both when Ron tried to destroy him with his plasma blaster on wheels and when he gave him a little "attitude adjustment" with the attitudinator, but everything else about Shaun is ATROCIOUS. If I was Ron I would honestly do anything to avoid spending time with him for the rest of my entire life, in other words, 'til I die. This basically means: If I was Ron, I would extremely abuse him to 'til he cries like a baby everytime he comes near me or I come near him. A few abusive things I would do to him is spank him COUNTLESSLY with a multiple-hole stick, pour gasoline down his pants to light him up with a lighter, and killing his pet iguana with a kitchen knife and throw his iguana in the garbage when it bleeds to death. I honestly think and act out extremely abusive things to that demonic brat when I pretend and act out Ron's part, even acting out simillar abusive parts from other movies and stuff. So yeah, that's my opinion on Ron's cousin, Shaun. And I'll say to the creators, whenever they bring the show back: Don't bring Shaun back, in other words, don't put him in another KP episode, PLEASE! (TallTitan70 (talk) 00:26, November 10, 2013 (UTC))